Tonight at Grizzy's Cafe, we had a discussion about responsible behavior in a virtual world. I have saved a transcript. I have edited out extraneous comings and goings.



[17:03] Grizzy Griswold: Well, I guess I'll open things up by saying what made me think of having a discussion on this topic was the fact that Linden Lab recently decided to open up a red light continent where all of the sexual activity would be moved to and while I'm not a fan of censorship except in extreme cases (I'm glad that sexual ageplay is gone) I personally think that this is probably a step in the right direction because SL is often mischaracterized as being only about sex because that is what outsiders see it as. While I think people should be free to do what they want here for the most part I think that like in rl things need to have a proper place. I think for SL to be taken seriously as a world there has to be some standard of public behavior beyond what we have. In RL there is a distinction between the public and private... and you wouldn't see people practicing BDSM when you go shopping for clothes and I guess I personally feel that while people should be able to do what they want with their SL it shouldn't infringe upon others. I have more thoughts on this, but I'll open it up for other people to comment.
[17:08] Sean Gorham: How does the old saying go? "The right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose?"
[17:08] Grizzy Griswold: Yeah, I personally don't care to see the fetishes of others on parade and when I voice that opinion to some in SL they say, "Well, you shouldn't be in SL then"
[17:08] Sean Gorham: But this is SL -- rarely does it work out so simply. :\
[17:09] Grizzy Griswold: and I don't think that's really fair... because SL has many many applications beyond fantasy, roleplay, and cybersex.
[17:09] Monica Oximoxi: I wonder if the fact that LL is in the san francisco area has an effect on their standards definition
[17:09] Grizzy Griswold: that is something that hadn't occured to me, Monica.
[17:10] Monica Oximoxi: it is not one of the more conservative places in the us :)
[17:10] Grizzy Griswold: but possible
[17:10] Sean Gorham tries to imagine SL being developed in Oklahoma and fails.
[17:10] Grizzy Griswold: I also really have a problem with the fact that I can't see if my abuse reports were handled
[17:10] Glorfindel Arrow: lol yeah, silicon valley and all that..
[17:11] Grizzy Griswold: or if the person was not reprimanded, I'm not given a reason why. If I file an abuse report, I don't know what happened beyond that.
[17:11] Monica Oximoxi: i had Bezerkley more in mind :)
[17:11] CleoPatra Guyot: that latter bothers me more than my relatively infrequent encounters with BDSM community
[17:11] Sean Gorham: True, Grizzy.
[17:11] Monica Oximoxi: true.. they don't say much.. but if sl had reporters we could probably find out
[17:12] Sean Gorham: Maybe I'm just a hermit, but I rarely run into the more fringe(?) elements of SL when I'm out-and-about.
[17:12] Grizzy Griswold: I am involved in some religious groups in world and some atheists who appear to be legitimate SL users and not griefers occasionally come to our events just to be obnoxious and make trouble
[17:12] Glorfindel Arrow: they used to have a sort of 'police blotter' on the web site, but dunno if it's still there, wasn't much anyway
[17:12] Sean Gorham: That's a shame, Grizzy. We're not all like that, honest. :(
[17:13] Grizzy Griswold: and then say that we are just afraid to listen or debate them, which we are more than willing to engage them in dialogue if they are polite and talk with us at a proper time (Not during a prayer).[17:13] Grizzy Griswold: I know that, Sean.. .several of the regulars here are members of SL humanists including one of my best SL friends.
[17:13] Grizzy Griswold: I always Abuse Report these people under Intolerance, but they never seem to get suspended or banned.
[17:14] Sean Gorham: The AR system has been overloaded long before either of us first rezzed.
[17:14] Grizzy Griswold: and I'm wondering if Linden Labs definition of Intolerance includse religious tolerance.
[17:14] CleoPatra Guyot: that's a good question
[17:14] Sean Gorham: More likely the definition varies depending on who's reading the email that day.
[17:15] Grizzy Griswold: I guess to sum things up I would like it if there was something a little closer to a rl standard of behavior for public areas.
[17:15] Glorfindel Arrow: yeah, they probably think 'free speech' of the greifers, rather that your right to have an event without disruption
[17:15] Liska Fuchs: Yeah, your ARs probably get low priority, Griz, considering some of the griefer attacks I've seen
[17:15] Grizzy Griswold: If someone came into your church and started harassing and verbally abusing people and wouldn't leave they would be arrested.
[17:15] Sean Gorham: Grizzy, whose standard of behavior, though? That can vary widely.
[17:16] Grizzy Griswold: I know that's why we are having this discussion. (:
[17:16] Sean Gorham chuckles.
[17:16] Monica Oximoxi: I had an AR responded to in front of my eyes within minutes and the griefer was already banned when I filed the report
[17:16] Sean Gorham: Oh, it can happen, Monica. It's more the exception than the rule though.
[17:16] Monica Oximoxi: so I know the system works sometimes;)
[17:17] Grizzy Griswold: cause the question of that... and the other question is, how do we get that to be something that is understood. People think that because its a world that looks like a video game that can do or say anything they want and be as rude as they like.
[17:17] Sean Gorham: Yes... the "lol internets" argument!
[17:17] Grizzy Griswold: and I think maybe its up to us as SL residents to not put up with bad behavior as much as it is LL responsibility
[17:17] Monica Oximoxi: it takes peer pressure and years of civilizing training in rl
[17:18] Grizzy Griswold: I begged the clergy (we have rl clergy at my sl church) to please ban the griefers on Sunday but they were giving them the benefit of the doubt
[17:18] Monica Oximoxi: i would assume peer pressure would also work here
[17:18] Grizzy Griswold: ..but no one is that stupid. They knew exactly what they were doing and they weren't there for a dialogue they were there to be disruptive
[17:18] Sean Gorham: The pseudonymous nature of SL is a disinhibiting factor. Some people think they can do whatever they want since they're not "really" doing it.
[17:18] CleoPatra Guyot: how do the other members of your congregation feel, Griz?
[17:18] Monica Oximoxi nods true
[17:18] Grizzy Griswold: Most of them were similiarly upset
[17:19] CleoPatra Guyot: Do you think your pastors would ban griefers if a majority asked them to?
[17:19] Grizzy Griswold: I think it depends. We have about 4 different ones from various parts of the globe who hold services at different times of the day
[17:20] Amara Abbot: could the sim not get banning for known greirfers?
[17:20] Grizzy Griswold: but I think really the issue I want to address is what Sean put better than I can SL's "disinhibiting factor"
[17:21] Grizzy Griswold: The thing is Amara, I don't think these people are run of the mill griefers who joined SL just to grief. I think they are people who dislike Christians and take time in sl to torment them since its easier here. They use sl for other purposes, but they can't go to a church and harass people in rl. They can do that here. the "disinhibiting factor"
[17:21] CleoPatra Guyot: I do agree that there is such a thing as a disinhibiting factor, but I am also wonder how standards of behavior have been changing generationally
[17:21] Sean Gorham: Undoubtedly that's a factor, Cleo.
[17:21] CleoPatra Guyot: because standards have to be taught, and learned
[17:22] Sean Gorham: Twentysomethings conduct themselves online differently than, say, my father in his late 70s would.
[17:22] CleoPatra Guyot: I find lately that my traditional aged college students just don't have them
[17:22] CleoPatra Guyot: exactly
[17:22] Monica Oximoxi: most 20 somethings are not emotionally developed .. unlike your father :)
[17:22] Grizzy Griswold: well, that's a sad thing, because what it comes down to is a lack of consideration or empathy for another person's feelings.
[17:23] Sean Gorham: It's easy to forget there's real people on the other side of the screen.
[17:23] Grizzy Griswold: not if you've spent any amount of time here and formed any relationships. The Lindens seem to have a vision of SL being a place that brings a diverse group of people together and makes connections throughout the world and allows people to express themselves creatively
[17:25] Monica Oximoxi: hmm utopians
[17:25] Grizzy Griswold: People thinking that they can come on here and treat others like crap because its "not real" seems to be counter to that vision.
[17:25] CleoPatra Guyot: and I think that vision draws people here
[17:25] Sean Gorham: Grizzy, I think it's safe to say that any of us here realize we're all people. I'm talking about J. Average Internetter. :P
[17:25] Liska Fuchs: Too many think "creatively" means creating particle spam
[17:25] CleoPatra Guyot: most of the people that I relate to anyway
[17:26] Grizzy Griswold: Yeah, that's true, Sean
[17:26] Monica Oximoxi: it seems that the number of griefers has diminished in the last 2 years but there will always be griefers in rl they are cited for trespass
[17:26] Liska Fuchs: I don't know, I've only been on for about a year
[17:26] Grizzy Griswold: I don't see a lot of the typical type of griefer. The "let's make penises and pictures of Bill Cosby rain from the sky" griefers
[17:26] Monica Oximoxi: not for harassment
[17:27] Liska Fuchs: No, Griz, they're all busy hitting Luskwood
[17:27] Grizzy Griswold: but I have seen people that say "You are a member of a group I disagree with so I am going to harass you"
[17:27] Monica Oximoxi: it is too near ahern for it's own good i think
[17:27] Grizzy Griswold: I think Ahern is a collection of the worst SL has to offer.
[17:28] Liska Fuchs: Yeah they get hit by griefers 2-3 times a week
[17:28] Sean Gorham: Lusk will be where it is until they unplug the grid, I suspect. :P
[17:28] Grizzy Griswold: If I were a newb and I ended up at Ahern as part of my first experience in SL, I'd never come back.
[17:28] Monica Oximoxi: i agree sean :)
[17:28] Sean Gorham: Definitely, Grizzy. It's nothing like when I started.
[17:28] Sean Gorham can't remember the last time she visited any "Welcome" Area.
[17:28] Grizzy Griswold: The last time I did it was part of a social experiment
[17:28] Monica Oximoxi: I was in one today.. since this av is homeless. It's very quiet... a nice build too
[17:29] Grizzy Griswold: We tried on different gendered or raced avatars for a week... and part of the expeirment was to visit Ahern
[17:29] Sean Gorham: I remember reading about that!
[17:29] Grizzy Griswold: the people who were furries for a week were the ones that griefed
[17:30] Josiane Llewellyn: I am ignorant I guess - I don't know what Ahern is, lol
[17:31] Grizzy Griswold: I guess that the behavior that is a result of the disinhibiting factor (I really like that term) reminds me of high school.
[17:31] Grizzy Griswold: when I'm around people in SL who act like that, I feel like I'm back in high school
[17:31] Monica Oximoxi: it's one of the four sims that make up a welcome area usually called morris
[17:31] Grizzy Griswold: cause I was a nerd, (:
[17:31] Grizzy Griswold: probably some of them are IN high school
[17:31] Monica Oximoxi: WAS a nerd :)
[17:31] Sean Gorham: Josiane, it's where all new residents used to first show up, long before the Help Islands and such were made.
[17:32] Grizzy Griswold: cause I'm pretty sure lots of underage folks still find their way into SL.
[17:32] Josiane Llewellyn: oh ok, when I came in it was to Help islands :)
[17:32] CleoPatra Guyot: me too
[17:32] Sean Gorham: They did help. For a while. :P But that's a whole 'nother discussion!
[17:33] Grizzy Griswold: I think they have more new people than they can handle now. To bring up my other thought on ethics in SL, I feel that some of the sexual behavior that is permissable in SL promotes violence and abuse of women and that really bothers me. Most notably the stuff that goes on on the Gor sims but also graphic depictions of rape. There was a shop in SL where you could buy a skin that was made to look like a woman who had been brutalized and raped
[17:35] Monica Oximoxi: lol there's probably 5 now
[17:35] Grizzy Griswold: It even had a derogatory word carved into her flesh with a knife
[17:35] Sean Gorham: That's an interesting issue, since you can't really force someone to do something in SL.
[17:35] Sean Gorham: (Barring the use of modified clients, of course.)
[17:36] Monica Oximoxi: snuff movies in rl.. are they legal?
[17:36] Sean Gorham: I think that depends on where you are.
[17:36] Monica Oximoxi: i can't remember.. not something I've studied
[17:36] Grizzy Griswold: well, I understand that both parties involved are consenting and its not actual rape but at the same time it seems to be celebrating and glorifying rape
[17:36] Sean Gorham: Right.
[17:36] Grizzy Griswold: and glorifying treating women as subhuman
[17:37] Monica Oximoxi: it IS disturbing. There's a ton of the capture/roleplay stuff in sl
[17:37] Sean Gorham: It falls on that blurry line between roleplaying an action versus condoning it.
[17:37] Grizzy Griswold: ..and there are many who are willing to turn their heads and say "its just a fetish" and "they are consenting but I feel like if they are roleplaying something because they get off on it...
[17:37] Glorfindel Arrow: oh I think if they have 'red light districts' any kind of behavior will go on there
[17:38] Grizzy Griswold: that's kind of a step away from condoning it
[17:38] Monica Oximoxi: it took sl quite a while to prohibit age-play
[17:38] Grizzy Griswold: I do too Glor but I'm hoping that if its over there instead of part of ordinary life on the grid..
[17:38] Sean Gorham: Still, if they do it in private and don't force it upon others, is it really our place to interfere?
[17:38] Grizzy Griswold: maybe it will get marginalized and people won't be desensitized to it.
[17:38] Grizzy Griswold: Well Sean, I don't necessarily think that it should be against TOS but I do wish that there weren't so many people who are willing to look at it as ok...
[17:39] Sean Gorham: I didn't mean to imply I think it's ok.
[17:39] Monica Oximoxi: well there have been changes since i started.. try and search bdsm now
[17:39] Grizzy Griswold: You didn't
[17:39] Liska Fuchs: I just don't know if letting someone play out such fantasies in SL is a good thing (allowing someone to live out fantasies they can't do in RL), or a bad thing (encouraging & emboldening them in RL)
[17:39] Grizzy Griswold: but there are plenty of people in SL who don't seem to have a problem with it
[17:39] Monica Oximoxi: i get a content message
[17:40] Sean Gorham: I think if two consenting and otherwise healthy adults want to occasionally roleplay something outside the norm like that, it's probably not a bad thing.
[17:40] Grizzy Griswold: and Gorean "culture" is accepted by lots of folks in SL
[17:40] Sean Gorham: It's when it takes over to the exclusion of other activities, or becomes abusive, that there's a problem.
[17:41] Grizzy Griswold: I get the impression that most of the people who do that in SL do it to exclusion of anything else. I could be wrong
[17:41] Sean Gorham: When I was younger I experimented a couple times with BDSM play. It was interesting, but not my cup of tea.
[17:41] Sean Gorham: I suspect it's like that for many people here.
[17:42] Grizzy Griswold: I don't find the BDSM stuff particularly disturbing unless its really really hardcore stuff
[17:42] Sean Gorham: It's two sides of the same coin, really. The devil is figuring out where the middle road is.
[17:42] Grizzy Griswold: its more the slave and rape stuff that botehrs me
[17:42] Sean Gorham nods.
[17:43] Grizzy Griswold: Its when someone is fantasizing about hurting a woman, raping a woman, and calling her things like bitch and whore or the c word, that it gets into abuse.
[17:43] Grizzy Griswold: dressing up in latex and binding someone's arms isn't the same thing
[17:43] Sean Gorham: True.
[17:44] Grizzy Griswold: I don't wish to impose my personal morality on SL at all
[17:44] Liska Fuchs: Again, though, it's something that's becoming more prevalent in RL culture
[17:44] Shadow Riaxik: So because of your moral beliefs no one has the right to pursue life as they see fit for them?
[17:44] Grizzy Griswold: but at the same time I feel that activity that glorifies harming women is something that is generally harmful to society
[17:44] Sean Gorham: Is it really, Liska? Aside from stories I've (rarely) seen in the papers, I've never run into such behavior where I am.
[17:45] Sean Gorham: But then, I don't live in the big city.
[17:45] Monica Oximoxi: back
[17:45] Grizzy Griswold: well, see there are a lot of occasions when someone is "pursuing life as they see fit", but they are hurting someone else
[17:45] Liska Fuchs: I'm talking about the lyrics (if you can call it that) to rap, for instance.
[17:45] Sean Gorham: Oooh, don't get me started. There's rap and there's rap, and today's "rap" isn't. :P
[17:45] Grizzy Griswold: and I feel that putting interactive scenarios online where you are raping and brutalizing women is harmful, because it effects how those who participate view women
[17:45] Shadow Riaxik: There is that small percentage of people who do not respect women and will hurt them in RL and have been for centuries. SL has not changed that
[17:46] Grizzy Griswold: Yes, but SL is giving those people a way to find other people who also like to abuse women, and make it seem more ok, since there's a community of them out there.
[17:46] Sean Gorham: I don't know, Grizzy... I think people who participate in such things as you describe may have had issues before SL ever came into the picture.
[17:47] Sean Gorham: I know I couldn't do that, not even in SL.
[17:47] Liska Fuchs: Chicken/egg problem
[17:47] Grizzy Griswold: that's probably true, but continuing to act it out here in SL with others who are likeminded is making the problem worse not better
[17:47] Sean Gorham: Just thinking about me doing that right now makes me shudder.
[17:47] Sean Gorham: Probably.
[17:47] Shadow Riaxik: SL may give people a way of expressing their deisres without harming anyone
[17:47] Grizzy Griswold: its perpetuating the problem rather than curing it.
[17:47] Shadow Riaxik: actually preventing harm to people in RL. There isn't a cure for it
[17:48] Liska Fuchs: Yeah, Shadow, that's what I was speculating on earlier.
[17:48] Sean Gorham: I think both Grizzy and Shadow are right. The trick is figuring out which is which. Every case is going to be different, and no one set of cut-and-dried rules can properly cover all the cases.
[17:48] Grizzy Griswold: I think that if you get off on hurting others you should be seeing a psychiatrist rather than indulging these feelings.
[17:48] Shadow Riaxik: When sin entered the world it is here to remain until Jesus returns
[17:49] Grizzy Griswold: I think if you get sexually aroused by abusing others you have something mentally wrong with you and you need help.
[17:49] Sean Gorham: No disagreement there.
[17:49] Grizzy Griswold: and acting that out in SL is not getting help
[17:49] Shadow Riaxik: So removing SL will encourage them to seek help????
[17:50] Monica Oximoxi: at least some of them put their 1st pics up .. so if you run into them in rl you can back away slowly
[17:50] Grizzy Griswold: No, but I actually personally think (I am no psychologist) that having SL as a constant reminder may actually make them think about it more.
[17:50] Shadow Riaxik: SO what do you suggest the solution is?
[17:50] Grizzy Griswold: I know personally since I got rid of cable tv I think about sex less.
[17:51] Shadow Riaxik: So you propose we get rid of SL
[17:51] Grizzy Griswold: Well, I don't think that SL should ban it, but I think that the residents of SL should stop being tolerant of it
[17:51] Sean Gorham: I know since I got the internet I think about sex MORE. ;D
[17:51] Shadow Riaxik: SO go to the PG areas
[17:51] Grizzy Griswold: Well, like I said I'm not talking about all sex in SL.. I'm talking about the violent sex. I think that people like the Goreans shouldn't be accepted as part of the norm in SL like they are now.
[17:52] Liska Fuchs: I think they need finer gradations instead of just PG or Mature
[17:52] Grizzy Griswold: I agree Liska
[17:52] Sean Gorham nods.
[17:52] Shadow Riaxik: SL has Pg areas and Adult areas. If you don't like what you see in the adult areas stay out of them
[17:52] Glorfindel Arrow: sometimes you get griefed in PG areas, we were talking about folks lack of behavior
[17:52] Monica Oximoxi: ack my libertarian self says no more rules! but then... arrgghh
[17:52] Sean Gorham: Agreed, Shadow, but what happens when they bring it to you, instead?
[17:53] Shadow Riaxik: Sometimes you get griefed in mature areas
[17:53] Grizzy Griswold: Shadow in the case of the Gorean stuff its not that I simply don't like it
[17:53] Shadow Riaxik: you are not special
[17:53] Grizzy Griswold: Its that I think it promotes mistreatment of other human beings. Its like saying misogyny and violence is good that I cannot simply ignore
[17:55] Josiane Llewellyn: I completely agree with that feeling Grizzy but I think it is up to the owners of each sim to set what is allowed and what is not..
[17:56] Grizzy Griswold: yeah, like I was saying I don't really think the answer is making it against TOS.
[17:56] Shadow Riaxik: The gorean and BDSM culture is out there in RL. People in these cultures find each other and have RL clubs.
[17:56] Sean Gorham: I'm inclined to agree, so long as they're not breaking any RL laws.
[17:56] Monica Oximoxi: the material that makes up dreams and desires can be a volatile mix
[17:56] Grizzy Griswold: I think the answer is to make SL less accepting of it
[17:56] Shadow Riaxik: What are you going to do about those?
[17:56] Grizzy Griswold: IN RL people don't accept Gorean as normal or healthy
[17:56] Sean Gorham: Right. The issue isn't so much about enforcement as it is changing the cultural norms.
[17:56] Sean Gorham: Effecting such a change will be difficult at best.
[17:56] Grizzy Griswold: I have never seen anyone ever in RL publicly admit that they are Gorean and the reason is it wouldn't go over too well
[17:57] Sean Gorham: Right, because it's not "normal".
[17:57] Shadow Riaxik: What is normal??
[17:57] Monica Oximoxi: Sl has a sexual culture.. the gradations and variations run the gamut
[17:57] Grizzy Griswold: and I don't have a problem with people wanting to have BDSM sex
[17:57] Sean Gorham: Good question, Shadow. :)
[17:57] Grizzy Griswold: as long as they don't do it around me and in RL, unless you go somewhere looking for that you don't see it In SL, that's not always the case
[17:58] Shadow Riaxik: I had to go looking for it. It didn't just find me
[17:58] Monica Oximoxi: growing up near hollywood,as i did, normal is a very different thing than most of the country's normal;
[17:59] Grizzy Griswold: I occasionally see it in a furniture store or a dress shop or out on some random street in SL when I was not looking for it
[17:59] Shadow Riaxik: But in an adult area, right?
[17:59] Grizzy Griswold: Mature is not the same as adult. If I only went to sims marked PG 90% of SL would be off limits
[18:00] Shadow Riaxik: Mature in SL is basicly rated X
[18:00] Grizzy Griswold: Mature does not mean show off your kink to everyone.
[18:00] Grizzy Griswold: No I disagree
[18:00] Monica Oximoxi: None of it bothers me.. except if it's a temptation for me lol
[18:00] LaDonna Upshaw: but i agree with Grizz
[18:00] Monica Oximoxi: then I leave... quickly
[18:00] Grizzy Griswold: cause even if you are holding an event in a Mature sim, on the calendar you have to mark it as an adult event.
[18:00] Shadow Riaxik: In SL mature means anything goes
[18:01] Grizzy Griswold: then why do you have to mark if you are going to have adult content at your event?
[18:01] Liska Fuchs: But should it mean that, Shadow?
[18:01] Sean Gorham: The rules are changing soon - that's why so many are in an uproar.
[18:01] Grizzy Griswold: cause sorry but the Blarney Stone is not an orgy bar
[18:01] Shadow Riaxik: I don't have a problem with further segregation of adult content from non adult content
[18:02] LaDonna Upshaw: yes, adult behavior is more tolerated but it is up to who is making the rules on that sim
[18:02] Shadow Riaxik: I think in the long run it will be good for everyone on both sides of this discussion
[18:02] LaDonna Upshaw: the segregaation of sl?
[18:03] Shadow Riaxik: Yes they are preparing to move adult content to a continent by itself
[18:03] Grizzy Griswold: I think that is a good thing too
[18:03] Monica Oximoxi: ruffling a lot of feathers too
[18:03] LaDonna Upshaw: I personally look at that as a form of censorship and I am against all forms of censorship. You can avoid the sexed up sl
[18:04] Sean Gorham: I could understand that if SL was a public resource. It's not.
[18:04] Grizzy Griswold: That's like saying that not being allowed to walk around naked down the street in RL is a form of censorship.
[18:04] Liska Fuchs: It will be interesting to see where they draw the lines between "adult" and "everything else
[18:04] LaDonna Upshaw: it's not necessarily a reality, just because a sim is mature and that's the other issue. Who is gonna decide?
[18:04] Grizzy Griswold: but people think that, LaDonna, as Shadow just demonstrated
[18:04] Sean Gorham: In the end, it's LL's computers and LL's rules. That doesn't mean I agree with LL's decisions, of course.
[18:05] LaDonna Upshaw: let's take art, as an example. what if art features nudity?
[18:05] Grizzy Griswold: People think that if has an M at the top of the screen they can go in your bushes and have kinky sex in your front lawn
[18:05] LaDonna Upshaw: does that make it dirty?
[18:05] Grizzy Griswold: and if the sim owner isn't around you have to watch
[18:05] Sean Gorham: Just look at the one time in Burning Life, LaDonna. the Lindens got all in a tizzy over that statue.
[18:06] Grizzy Griswold: well, I would hope that there would be some sort of common sense...
[18:06] Shadow Riaxik: If LL eliminated all adult content they would go bankrupt
[18:06] Grizzy Griswold: Michealangelo's David is not dirty... naked pole dancing is dirty
[18:06] Sean Gorham: Wait wait... Lindens? Common sense? :D
[18:06] Glorfindel Arrow: lol
[18:06] Grizzy Griswold: I don't want them to eliminate all adult content. I never said that I did.
[18:06] Amara Abbot: no matter if it is SL or RL sex sales
[18:06] Liska Fuchs: Not an easy issue. How about Mapplethorpe, or Sally Mann's photos?
[18:08] Grizzy Griswold: I guess my point is Mature shouldn't mean anything and everything
[18:08] Sean Gorham: I do agree that the existing PG/Mature system could use some work.
[18:09] Shadow Riaxik: Sure they could do an Adult, Mature and PG
[18:09] Grizzy Griswold: and I'm sorry but I don't think "stay only on PG sims" because people should be able to f*** whereever they want if there's an M on the screen is really a good answer.
[18:09] Liska Fuchs: I wish they'd use another word besides "Adult", though
[18:10] Grizzy Griswold: maybe like movie ratings: PG PG-13 R and NC17. The NC17 sim could be where you are free to copulate anywhere you like.
[18:11] Liska Fuchs: Yeah, but without the numbers, I guess
[18:11] Monica Oximoxi: lol parental guidance
[18:11] Glorfindel Arrow: make it an X, because you're already supposed to be over 17 aren't you??
[18:11] Grizzy Griswold: yeah PG13 doesn't really work either
[18:11] Monica Oximoxi: now would that be an sl parent? or a rl parent?
[18:12] Grizzy Griswold: Grizzy's is really closer to PG 13 than PG.. we have our occasional profanity or innuendo but I want the club to be PG to let people know clothing is not optional
[18:12] Liska Fuchs: Did anything ever come of the idea of merging SL Teen into SL?(or maybe the Adult continent is a foreshadowing of that)
[18:13] Monica Oximoxi: lol moulin rouge the movie is pg-13
[18:14] Grizzy Griswold: but Moulin Rouge the movie has no explicit sex.... at least I think it doesn't.. I haven't actually seen it
[18:14] Monica Oximoxi: it's pretty risque
[18:14] Glorfindel Arrow: loose morals in old timey Paris....lololol
[18:14] Monica Oximoxi: but no sex per se
[18:15] Monica Oximoxi: rating sl content in that manner would be nearly impossible.. sl content changes too fast
[18:15] Grizzy Griswold: true it'd be up those involved being honest. even with things like they are now.. let's say you stay only on PG land. a PG sim can be next to a Mature sim
[18:16] Monica Oximoxi: for it to work it would have to inherent benefits to all
[18:16] Grizzy Griswold: and therefore a strip club can be in plain view of PG land negating its PGness
[18:17] Shadow Riaxik: put a wall up, I see them all the time. walls that is
[18:17] Monica Oximoxi: with camera controls.. sim lines are negated anyway and walls too :)
[18:17] Cache Forster: I figured - you meant the walls :)
[18:17] Liska Fuchs: And locking doors
[18:18] Shadow Riaxik: I think after the changes are made that will not be an issue
[18:18] Monica Oximoxi: but then you'd have to be looking wouldn't you?
[18:18] Grizzy Griswold: So basically Shadow, you are saying the rights of those who wish to not experience sex in SL mean less than the rights of those who wish to engage in it?
[18:18] Monica Oximoxi: I miss the wild west sl
[18:18] Grizzy Griswold: I don't want to see sex so I should stay away from 95% of all of SL and build a wall
[18:18] Shadow Riaxik: Not at all, I am just saying the right of anyone no matter what they wish to do, should not be squashed
[18:19] Monica Oximoxi: sex IS legal... and I am reminded of smoking laws with this
[18:19] Shadow Riaxik: and Linden Labs is working to make it better for all according to the rumors
[18:19] Grizzy Griswold: I think if someone paid for land on a PG sim they should haven't to build a wall unless they want a wall
[18:19] Shadow Riaxik: 95% or SL is paying the bills
[18:20] Grizzy Griswold: Like I said before.. I don't want to ban sex... I never said that
[18:20] Liska Fuchs: The wall should be the responsibility of the non-PG sim
[18:20] Grizzy Griswold: I just am saying the people who are having the sex should be a little more respectful of other people's feelings who may not share their kink
[18:20] Amara Abbot: you are right Liska
[18:20] Grizzy Griswold: and keep that stuff where it belongs.
[18:20] Shadow Riaxik: According to rumour LL is going to move all adult content away from PG content
[18:20] Grizzy Griswold: on the sims that are specified for that content
[18:21] Shadow Riaxik: So once they are done your complaints will most likely be taken care of
[18:21] Grizzy Griswold: I hope you are right but I don't see how they can enforce that given the huge amount of moving that would require. It will be interesting to see how that plays out
[18:22] LaDonna Upshaw: you know, from a business stand point segregation make no sense at all
[18:22] Shadow Riaxik: I am sure there will be problems, lag during the move and many frustrations during that time
[18:22] LaDonna Upshaw: and it will hurt business here
[18:22] Grizzy Griswold: Its not like they can't come on the non-adult regions, LaDonna
[18:22] Monica Oximoxi: but how many will?
[18:23] LaDonna Upshaw: why should a furniture designer, who includes a sex menu
[18:23] Grizzy Griswold: That's assuming everyone who is having sex in SL is here ONLY to have sex.
[18:23] LaDonna Upshaw: be forced to move that particular line off site?
[18:23] Grizzy Griswold: Ladonna from what I hear, sex beds and thigns like that are ok in non-adult areas as long as they aren't in plain view.you can put your sex bed in a skybox and it doesn't violate TOS
[18:24] LaDonna Upshaw: well, i don't do sex furniture yet but it's in the plan
[18:24] Monica Oximoxi: sadly to me, I think most people that are new to sl are looking for sex and may not even know there's another continent
[18:24] Liska Fuchs: Sorta like the adult magazines at the bookstore
[18:24] Grizzy Griswold: yeah, Liska.. and I think that's a good way to handle it
[18:24] Glorfindel Arrow: yeah, LL with their typically heavy hand, do they suddenly whisk away all the 'M' sims, or just open a place for hardcore porn...
[18:25] Monica Oximoxi ponders possible LL names for that continent
[18:25] Monica Oximoxi laughs
[18:25] Grizzy Griswold: All I want is there to be an understanding that sex is not public behavior to be shared with the world.... unless you are somewhere where you want it to be the case.
[18:25] Liska Fuchs: They need to more actively seek input from SL residents on what should be "Adult" and what should be "Mature"
[18:26] Shadow Riaxik: I think part of LL concerns may be legal also
[18:26] Grizzy Griswold: its my personal opinion that if you want to have sex in world it should be either in a sim dedicated to that sort of thing or on your own private home.that's what I want and hopefully that's what this new thing LL is doing will accomplish.I don't think that is a horrible thing to ask or censorship..I think that's a compromise everyone can work with
[18:28] Shadow Riaxik: I think that's a compromise LL is going to force on us whether we like it or not
[18:28] LaDonna Upshaw: well, it makes opensim look better and better
[18:29] Grizzy Griswold: People who don't know what SL is all about tend to think its one giant porn machine and I think that LL is worried about that image for one thing. I think this will help with that
[18:29] LaDonna Upshaw: and i know that is what bothers LL the most but segregation isn't the answer
[18:29] Shadow Riaxik: but it also contains vampire sims amd combat sims
[18:30] Grizzy Griswold: and educational sims and religious sims
[18:30] Shadow Riaxik: should those be segregated also
[18:30] Grizzy Griswold: No, that's not the same thing
[18:30] Shadow Riaxik: Is vampire sims not as "evil" as sex sims
[18:31] Grizzy Griswold: I see nothing wrong with vampire sims
[18:31] Shadow Riaxik: are you Christian?
[18:31] Liska Fuchs: The Vampire & Combat sims are more what I'd call "Mature" but not "Adult"
[18:31] LaDonna Upshaw: the fact is, it's all basically choice. isn't it?
[18:31] Grizzy Griswold: yes, Shadow I am
[18:31] Grizzy Griswold: what does that have to do with anything?
[18:31] Shadow Riaxik: So a blood sucking demon from hell is OK
[18:31] LaDonna Upshaw: you chose what you want...and besides...everything is just a tp away anyway
[18:32] Grizzy Griswold: Considering that vampires do not exist in rl, I don't see where that is a valid argument
[18:32] Shadow Riaxik: But pursue vampirism in RL. They drink each others blood
[18:33] Grizzy Griswold: I have watched many a vampire movie in my day and it hasn't harmed me in any way
[18:33] Grizzy Griswold: I have never heard of anyone doing that, Shadow
[18:33] Shadow Riaxik: It is out there
[18:33] LaDonna Upshaw: everything is out there
[18:33] Grizzy Griswold: I don't think that everyone who RPs being a vampire is drinking blood
[18:33] Shadow Riaxik: I have watched many X rated movies and they have not harmed me in any way
[18:33] Grizzy Griswold: Personally whenever I have looked at something like that I have felt that it did harm me.
[18:34] Glorfindel Arrow: so you say
[18:34] Shadow Riaxik: So it really boils down to personal choice
[18:34] Grizzy Griswold: which is why I don't like accidentally happening upon it. yes, and my personal choice is to not look at it which is why I want it segregated
[18:34] Monica Oximoxi has always found porn films very good for putting her to sleep
[18:35] Shadow Riaxik: So you would be OK if the sim next door was a vampire sim
[18:35] Grizzy Griswold: To be honest I wouldn't really care
[18:36] Shadow Riaxik: Lady you need to go talk to your pastor
[18:36] Glorfindel Arrow: I don't like to be asked to be bitten tho...lol
[18:36] Grizzy Griswold: as long as they didn't come over here and ask if they could bite me every 10 seconds cause that is annoying
[18:36] LaDonna Upshaw: why would you care? why would anyone care?
[18:36] Shadow Riaxik: You have really got thing mixed up
[18:36] LaDonna Upshaw: why is fantasy against any religious teaching?
[18:36] Grizzy Griswold: yeah, what LaDonna said
[18:37] Shadow Riaxik: sex fantasy, vampire fantasy. what's the difference
[18:37] Liska Fuchs: Narnia fantasy?
[18:37] Liska Fuchs: BIG differences
[18:37] Grizzy Griswold: yeah
[18:37] LaDonna Upshaw: we have to live in the world
[18:37] Shadow Riaxik: The bible you should not drink blood. it doesn't say you should not have sex
[18:38] LaDonna Upshaw: and there are people in the world that do not believe as we do
[18:38] Grizzy Griswold: The Bible also says you shouldn't wear blended fabrics... what's your point?
[18:39] Shadow Riaxik: You are all down on sex, and I agree there should be a way to avoid it if you want to, but you are ok with a sim that has blood sucking demons being next door.
[18:39] Grizzy Griswold: There is no such thing as vampires in RL
[18:40] Monica Oximoxi: down on sex?? who?? ack!
[18:40] LaDonna Upshaw: we have to live in the world, and part of it is not acceptance...or even tolerance...but just getting over it
[18:40] Shadow Riaxik: I just don't understand how you justify that
[18:40] LaDonna Upshaw: deciding what you will allow to effect you, or not. not everyone is going to fit in with your bible. or even read your bible. does it make them bad?
[18:41] Shadow Riaxik: Satan worshipers drink blood. Do you not think that seeing vampires next door might lead to someone pursuing satanism?
[18:41] LaDonna Upshaw: hell no
[18:41] Grizzy Griswold: Because sex is a RL thing that while I believe it is a gift from God, it needs to be handled responsibly because there are real people involved and real emotions involved and so your attitudes and feelings on it are important as well as using it in an appropriate context
[18:41] LaDonna Upshaw: that's outrageous
[18:41] Grizzy Griswold: Vampires are something in horror movies.. they do not exist. they are a harmless fantasy
[18:41] Glorfindel Arrow: I thought we were saying that some things are not appropriate in public areas......
[18:42] Grizzy Griswold: yes, that is all that I am saying
[18:42] LaDonna Upshaw: if i was a jew, and the person who lived next door enjoyed pork chops. how is that gonna effect me?
[18:42] Glorfindel Arrow: g'night Monica
[18:42] Grizzy Griswold: I don't care if the people next door have a BDSM dungeon if I don't have to see it
[18:42] Grizzy Griswold: See to me having to look at it is the same thing as if they came next door and force fed you the porkchops. that's my point
[18:43] Shadow Riaxik: Google Real Life Vampires
[18:43] Grizzy Griswold: Sex should be a private thing between those involved
[18:43] LaDonna Upshaw: but what difference does that make?
[18:43] Grizzy Griswold: not a public thing shared with the world. Making me look at it is forcing me to be involved
[18:44] LaDonna Upshaw: but if i am a jew, i am not going to condem those that are not
[18:44] Grizzy Griswold: I am not condemning anyone other than the ones who are abusive to women. I never said that I look down on those who do it or think less of them. All I said is that I do not want to see it
[18:45] Shadow Riaxik: I don't see what you are so up tight about, Linden Labs is going to do something about it
[18:45] Grizzy Griswold: I just expect some common courtesy in not involving me in what they are doing
[18:45] Shadow Riaxik: It is only a question of how long and how they are going to handle it
[18:46] Grizzy Griswold: yeah, and we will see. I'm not trying to impose my morality on those people or say that I'm superior to them or anything like that. I just want it separate.
[18:47] Shadow Riaxik: You don't have to worry about me, If I was to have sex it would be in a private place
[18:47] Grizzy Griswold: The only time I have a problem with it is if it is degrading or abusive to others which I feel the Gorean sims are.
[18:47] LaDonna Upshaw: i just worry about censorship on any level because it has a snowball effect
[18:48] Grizzy Griswold: I don't see this as censorship so much as putting things in their proper places. In RL, if you want to engage in BDSM there are clubs for that sort of thing
[18:48] LaDonna Upshaw: we are all supposed to be adults here, right?
[18:48] Grizzy Griswold: you don't get in the middle of Main street at noon and do it
[18:49] LaDonna Upshaw: well, if that's true, what is the proper place?
[18:49] Grizzy Griswold: Yes, and adults have a sense of propriety. the right time and place to do things
[18:49] Liska Fuchs: I don't have a problem with censorship on private property. If it's my sim, I get to set the rules.
[18:49] Grizzy Griswold: Sexual activity should either be done in your private sim or on a sim designated for that
[18:49] LaDonna Upshaw: the way some avatars dress...i mean over sex is everywhere
[18:49] Grizzy Griswold: no in the middle of the furniture store or dresshop
[18:49] LaDonna Upshaw: everywhere... what are clothing designers who design lingerie going to do?
[18:50] Grizzy Griswold: I just want to be able to buy clothes without seeing someone leading someone else around by a leash
[18:50] LaDonna Upshaw: when will that be considered...too racy...for the general public?
[18:50] Grizzy Griswold: LaDonna I don't think that's gonna happen. LL I hope has better sense than to shoot themselves in the foot like that
[18:50] LaDonna Upshaw: it snowballs...and there are no real rules
[18:50] LaDonna Upshaw: you think so?
[18:51] Grizzy Griswold: you can see people in lingerie on network television
[18:51] LaDonna Upshaw: look at the open space program and tell me about good sense and LL
[18:51] Grizzy Griswold: well, if they want to do something like that Ladonna I will be with you crying censorship
[18:52] Grizzy Griswold: but in this case, I think they've been the opposite and been way too permissive
[18:52] LaDonna Upshaw: all i am saying is that stuff like this tends to snowball
[18:52] Grizzy Griswold: People were saying that when they got rid of that terrible ageplay..
[18:52] LaDonna Upshaw: and the real purpose gets lost behind the ostensible one
[18:52] Grizzy Griswold: and nothing else has snowballed yet
[18:52] Shadow Riaxik: I think if they go to the extreme with censorship they will go bankrupt. There is a lot of money moving throught the adult areas
[18:53] LaDonna Upshaw: well, open sim is coming...and sl will not be the only kid on the block
[18:53] Grizzy Griswold: I don't think they are going to. They are in California.
[18:53] Amara Abbot: what is open sim?
[18:53] LaDonna Upshaw: this will not be the only metaverse
[18:54] Grizzy Griswold: well, we already have There and Active Worlds and some others
[18:54] LaDonna Upshaw: and for all intents and purposes...it is now but they are nowheresville
[18:54] LaDonna Upshaw: but that isn't always going to be that way
[18:54] Grizzy Griswold: Well folks, I need to wrap this up cause I have somewhere else to be at 7slt but thanks for coming and being a part of the discussion